Come Hell or High Water, part 2

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness..." (Revelation 12:14) “And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness…” (Revelation 12:14)
“And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness…” (Revelation 12:14)

In our previous installment, by mapping key events in Revelation 12:4,7 to the book of Daniel, we sought to identify the bounds of the time frame of the events depicted in Revelation 12 as well as the identities of the Woman and the Man Child. As we noted there, the time frame in chapter 12 encompasses everything from the persecution of the Jews by the Little Horn of Daniel 8 “for a time, times, and an half” (Daniel 12:7), to the persecution of the Church by the Little Horn of Daniel 7 for “a time and times and the dividing of time” (Daniel 7:25). The Woman of Revelation 12 begins as National Israel suffering under Greek persecution as the stars of heaven are cast down (Daniel 8:10, Revelation 12:4), and then under Roman imperial oppression as the serpent attempts to devour the Man Child when He is born (Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:4). The Man Child is Christ who lived, died, rose and “was caught up unto God, and to his throne” (Revelation 12:5) during the Roman Empire, by which time the Woman has become Ecclesial Israel who would flee to the wilderness after being persecuted by the devil, only to endure even more persecution by the ungodly empire that would succeed Rome. It is in the context of that transition from National to Ecclesial Israel that Michael “standeth for the children of thy people” (Daniel 12:1) and “fought against” the accuser of the brethren (Revelation 12:7-10). In this installment we now turn our attention to the timing of the Flight of the Woman and the Flood let loose by the Serpent by evaluating the effects of Michael’s extradition of Satan in the context of Daniel’s prophecies.

As we proceed through a chronological analysis, we will lean heavily on the timeline Daniel provided for us in his visions of Daniel 2 and 7. In a dream, Nebuchadnezzar had seen a succession of empires represented by a series materials in a statue: a head of Gold, chest and arms of Silver, belly and thighs of Bronze, legs of Iron, and feet of Iron mixed with Clay. Because the time frame of Revelation 12 straddles the transition from the Belly and Thighs of Bronze to the Legs of Iron in that statue, we will focus on the latter part of the dream as the Iron Legs then transition to Iron & Clay Feet and finally into Iron & Clay Toes. As Daniel said, by the dream the Lord “maketh known to thee what shall come to pass” (Daniel 2:29). It was intended to reveal the future in chronological succession. As we have shown in our articles, Legs of Iron and The Fifth Empire, Jesus and the apostle John relied on that established chronology in order to depict the coming fulfillment of the final segments of the statue, and by that depiction, we may identify the timing of the Woman’s Flight and the Serpent’s Flood.

Historically there has been very little difficulty establishing the early succession of empires. The Gold referred to Babylon, the Silver to the Medo-Persian empire, the Bronze to the Greek, and the Iron to the early Roman empire. However, beyond that point, eschatologists have struggled to identify the critical transitions from Legs of Iron to Feet of Iron & Clay and finally to Toes. As we have shown in our articles, however, the Iron period may be easily identified by the first seven emperors of the Roman empire (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero and Galba), and the Iron & Clay period can be shown to begin under Galba’s successor, Otho, in 69 A.D., just one year before Jerusalem’s destruction. The period of the Iron & Clay Feet continues all the way through 293 A.D., at which point Diocletian divided the empire into twelve dioceses, heralding the period of the Toes. The Toes of Daniel 2 correspond to the Horns of Daniel 7, and by 373 A.D., the dioceses had been reordered in such a way that there were thirteen. This set the stage for Roman Catholicism to lay claim to three of them—Italy, Egypt and Oriens—and to rise up among the remaining ten, as depicted in Daniel 7. We addressed that particular fulfillment in our articles, A See of One and The Fourteenth Diocese.

Thus is a chronology established for us by Daniel to aid in our recognition of Roman Catholicism as the great antagonist with which so much of apostolic and prophetic eschatological literature is occupied. Small wonder that the Early Church recognized that the Iron period had long since come, and the period of Toes—along with the rise of “that Wicked” one (2 Thessalonians 2:8)—could not be far away. We highlighted the Early Church’s anticipation of his soon arrival in What the Fathers Feared Most. What we find in Revelation 12 is that John has provided to us more than a few chronological signposts to show the elect what to expect as the rise of the Little Horn drew nearer and nearer. He provided those signposts throughout chapter 12 in such a way that we can narrow down the time frame of the Woman’s Flight and the Serpent’s Flood to the period of the Toes of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue, after the Fifth Seal of Revelation 6, but prior to the persecution enacted by the Little Horn of Daniel 7.

Regarding John’s signposts, we notice immediately that the chapter is essentially divided into three parts. The first part (verses 1-6) expresses a summary of events from the travails of the Woman as Israel to the Woman’s stay in the wilderness as the Church. In this part neither the cause nor the effect of her flight are provided. The second part (verses 7-13) provides specific details on the cause of the Woman’s flight, and the third part (verses 14-17) provides specific details on the effect of the Woman’s Flight. We focus this week on the first two parts.

The Woman’s Flight

In the first part, Revelation 12:1-6, the time frame and the main characters are introduced—the Woman, the Serpent and the Man Child. After the ascent of her Son, the Woman is said to take flight to a place where she is fed for a specific length of time:

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” (Revelation 12:5-6)

Apart from the few chronological indicators leading up to the birth and ascension of the Man Child, which we identified last week (Revelation 12:3-4), there is very little information about when the flight of the Woman is to take place. This first part ends simply with the duration of her stay in the wilderness.

The Cause of Her Flight

But in the second part, Revelation 12:7-13, much more information is given about why the Woman fled to the wilderness. In this part we are informed that the Woman’s flight takes place after the Serpent is cast out of heaven. John summarizes the extradition in three different ways:

A) When Michael Stands Up: the Serpent was “cast out” by “Michael and his angels” (Revelation 12:7-9);

B) The Coming of the Kingdom and the Testimony of the Martyred Saints: “Now is come … the kingdom of our God, … for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,” and the saints overcame him (12:10-11);

C) Civil Persecution by the Devil: as soon as he was cast down, “he persecuted the woman” (12:12-13).

Each time John tells it, he makes note of key chronological signposts that help narrow down the time frame of the Woman’s Flight.

A. When Michael Stands Up

 “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

As we noted in our previous installment, the references to Michael in Daniel 12 and Revelation 12 share a similar context: Michael adopts a defensive posture on behalf of God’s people during a time of tribulation. In our article, The Single Frame Hypothesis, we showed that the Greek Period of Daniel’s visions ends at Daniel 11:45, and events that are to take place beginning in the Roman period are described at the beginning of Daniel chapter 12. Michael’s action is the first thing mentioned. Thus, we can at the very least say that Michael’s stance in Daniel 12 occurs under the Roman Empire which immediately follows the Greek. The narrator’s next description of Satan’s extradition provides even more specific information regarding that timing, particularly in regard to the saints “which came out of great tribulation” (Revelation 7:14)

B. The Coming of the Kingdom and the Testimony of the Martyred Saints

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Revelation 12:10-11)

In this part of the narrative, the angel provides two important chronological signposts: the announcement of the kingdom, and the response of the saints to “the accuser of the brethren.”

• The Kingdom

In this version of the extradition, we are particularly interested in the announcement of the arrival of the kingdom, especially in light of the eschatological and historical significance it has played since Daniel’s visions in chapters 2 and 7, as well as John’s and Jesus’ announcement that it was nigh. We covered this in greater detail in our series, Legs of Iron, as well as our series The Fifth Empire and in our article, “The Kingdom of Earth is at Hand.” With regard to Daniel, we observed in The Fifth Empire how he maintained a categorical distinction between a Heavenly and an Earthly Kingdom in chapters 2 and 7.

In the harmonization of those two chapters we find that the saints take possession of a heavenly kingdom in the period of the Fourth Empire, while the Little Horn of Daniel 7 takes dominion over an earthly kingdom in the midst of the remnants of the Fourth Empire. He uses that earthly dominion to wear out the saints who remain in possession of a heavenly kingdom throughout. It is not until Christ’s return much later that the earthly dominion of the Little Horn is taken away, and only then do the saints take possession of an earthly kingdom. Thus we see that when speaking of the Heavenly Kingdom of the Saints, Daniel’s angelic narrator uses terms that refer to heaven and omit references to earth:

“And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay … And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed…” (Daniel 2:43-44)

“These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.” (Daniel 7:17-18)

Both refer to a Heavenly Kingdom received by the saints in the period of the Roman Empire, just as John and Jesus had announced (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, John 18:36), and just as Jesus taught His apostles to preach after Him (Matthew 10:17). But when speaking of the saints possessing an Earthly Kingdom, Daniel and his narrator speak of it as a kingdom “under heaven,” and show the saints in possession of it only after the Little Horn has been vanquished:

“…and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.” (Daniel 2:35)*

“But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.” (Daniel 7:26-27)

Here, both refer to an Earthly Kingdom—i.e., “the whole earth,” and “under the whole heaven”— enjoyed by the saints after the Little Horn’s earthly dominion has been taken away. In sum, the saints take possession of a Heavenly kingdom before the rise of the Little Horn, and take possession of an Earthly kingdom after the Little Horn is destroyed.

This is important to us first because Daniel indicated, and Jesus confirmed, that the Heavenly Kingdom would be taken away from the Jews and transferred to the saints during the Iron & Clay Period of the Fourth Empire, and Jesus made the desolation of Jerusalem the harbinger of that transfer (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 21:44, 22:2-7; Luke 19:14-27, 20:18). Under that rubric, as we discussed in Legs of Iron,  the first seven emperors of Rome constituted the Iron Period of Daniel’s vision, and the Iron & Clay period began under Otho, in 69 A.D.. Jerusalem’s destruction came the following year. Our point here is that Daniel and Jesus both placed the transfer of the Heavenly Kingdom within the Iron & Clay Period of the Roman empire.

This is also important to us because when John speaks of earthly and heavenly kingdoms in his Apocalypse, he maintains the same categorical distinctions that Daniel did. Notice for example that in Revelation 11:15, it is not until after the sounding of the final Trumpet that Jesus is said to take possession of an Earthly Kingdom:

“The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;” (Revelation 11:15)

We now compare this to the wording of heavenly voice of Revelation 12:10. The voice announces the coming of a kingdom when Satan is cast down to earth. This is a description of the arrival of a Heavenly Kingdom, not an Earthly one:

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.” (Revelation 12:10)

And thus, we have yet another chronological signpost to aid us in our understanding of the timing of the flight of the Woman. Her flight is described subsequent to the casting down of Satan, and that extradition takes place within the Iron & Clay Period of the Roman Empire. Thus, the flight of the Woman is to occur not only within the period of the Fourth Empire, but within the Iron & Clay period of the Fourth Empire. To this we will now add the testimony of the martyred saints, which pushes the timing of the Woman’s flight all the way into the period of the Iron & Clay Toes.

• The Testimony of the Martyred Saints

In this rendition of Satan’s extradition, there is a second chronological signpost, and it is in the description of the martyrs and their testimony.  They overcame the accuser “by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony,” a description that invokes the language of the Fifth Seal of Revelation 6. In the description of that Seal, John relates what he saw under the altar: “the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held” (Revelation 6:9). Notably, these martyrs are told to be patient and are given robes (Revelation 6:11) made white by the washing of the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:13-14).

While it is true that all martyrs achieve victory “by the blood of the Lamb” as well as “by the word of their testimony,” John’s language is nevertheless unique here—a description clearly linked to the Fifth Seal. Notably, just at the moment that John is writing about Satan being cast to earth where he persecutes the Woman, he invokes the testimony of the martyrs of the Fifth Seal who had been slain during the Fourth Seal when Hell and Death were granted authority “over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth” (Revelation 6:8). As we noted in our article, Do Not Weep for Nicomedia, the Fourth Seal refers to the ten year Diocletianic persecution that began in 303 A.D., and the Fifth Seal can be assigned to the brief respite that took place in 308 A.D..

As we also discussed in The Fifth Empire, it was under the crushing effects of the first two Seals that Diocletian was forced to divide the Roman Empire into twelve dioceses (293 A.D.), initiating the period of the Toes of Daniel’s vision in chapter 2. The Stone that strikes the statue during the Iron & Clay period is not Christ in His earthly ministry, but the ascended Savior as He opens the Seals (Revelation 6). The initial strike of the Stone does not destroy the statue but only breaks the Feet into pieces (Daniel 2:34), forming the Toes (Daniel 2:42). Within the century (c. 373 A.D), Diocletian’s successors would be forced by circumstances finally to divide the empire into thirteen dioceses, setting the stage for the rise of the Little Horn of Daniel 7 who would claim three of those dioceses for himself—Italy, Egypt and Oriens. (For further information on this, see our articles, A See of One and The Fourteenth Diocese).

Thus, under this chronological signpost we can see that the flight of the Woman takes place not only during the Fourth Empire, and not only during the Iron & Clay period of the Fourth Empire, but under the period of the Toes of the Iron & Clay Period of the Fourth Empire. This places the flight of the Woman after 313 A.D., the end of the Diocletianic persecution. John’s next description of the Devil’s civil persecution provides even more specific information regarding the timing of the Woman’s flight.

C. Civil Persecution by the Devil

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (Revelation 12:12-13)

As in the previous section, the devil is cast down to earth where he persecutes the Woman. No longer able to accuse the brethren “before our God” (Revelation 12:10), the devil is reduced to accusing them before Cæsar. Thus, during the particular period in view the Devil is depicted with the ability to effect a civil persecution of the elect. When speaking to the saints regarding this persecution, Jesus said it is the devil who will cast them into prison:

“Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Revelation 2:10)

This is particularly important because during the Fourth Seal, Hell and Death were given power “over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth” (Revelation 6:8). Thrice therefore in Revelation, either Hell, Death, the Serpent or the Devil are depicted with earthly civil power to imprison and put to death. The significance of this is seen in the sequence of civil persecutions that are prophesied in the Scriptures. The persecutions foreseen for the elect are first imposed by the Jews, then by the Romans, then by the Devil, and then by the Little Horn of Daniel 7, the Sea Beast of Revelation 13. The sequence of civil persecutions can be seen in the following verses:

… by the Jews

“But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues” (Matthew 10:17)

“But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten…” (Mark 13:9a)

“But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons…” (Luke 21:12a)

“They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.” (John 16:2)

“Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.” (Acts 26:10)

… by the Romans

“And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.” (Matthew 10:18)

“…and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.” (Mark 13:9b)

“… being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.” (Luke 21:12b)

“But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison…” (Acts 16:37)

… by the Devil

“behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried” (Revelation 2:10)

“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.” (Revelation 6:8)

“And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.” (Revelation 12:13)

… by the Little Horn and the Beast

“I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them … And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” (Daniel 7:21, 25)

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. … He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” (Revelation 13:7-10)

“And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (Revelation 13:15)

First the Jews imprisoned Christians and had them put to death. Then the Roman power did so. Then Satan when he was cast down did so. Then “the dragon gave [to the Beast] his power, and his seat, and great authority” (Revelation 13:2), and the Little Horn then wielded the civil power against the elect.

When surveying this prophesied sequence of civil persecutions, it becomes clear that the Woman’s flight to the wilderness must have taken place after the Satanic civil persecution when the Devil was cast down to earth—for her flight is subsequent to it—but before the civil persecution when the Beast receives “his power, and his seat, and great authority” (Revelation 13:2)—for her flight precedes it. The Woman’s opportunity for flight, and therefore the Serpent’s attempt to stop her, must take place between those two civil persecutions.

Notably, the Roman Catholic religion did not start exercising that civil power of the sword—the power of imprisonment, as well as corporal and capital punishment for “heresy”—until late in the 4th century when the Augustinian Consensus was achieved (c. 395 A.D.). The Flight of the Woman must therefore take place during the Roman Empire, during the period of the Toes of the Iron & Clay, after Satan effected a civil persecution against the elect, but before the end of the 4th century when Roman Catholicism finally donned the mantle of civil power. And because the Serpent “cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman” in flight (Revelation 12:15), then we ought to find both the “flood” and the flight of the Woman sometime between 313 and 395 A.D..

It is during that same period that we see the Rise of Roman Catholicism, its claim of the Three Petrine Sees of Rome, Alexandria and Antioch which were by then the three chief metropoli of the Dioceses of Italy, Egypt and Oriens, the three horns uprooted by the Little Horn of Daniel 7, the three kings subdued by him. Based on Daniel’s depiction of the Feet and Toes of the statue of Daniel 2, there is simply no other period when this could occur. We will not be surprised therefore to find the Serpent’s Flood and the Woman’s Flight in that period too, fraught as it is with eschatological significance, for the martyrs were vanquished, and the elect marked with the seal of God, on August 23, 358 A.D., just as the great apostasy was unfolding and the Little Horn was about to come up and receive its earthly kingdom—the Fifth Empire of John’s and Daniel’s visions, the successor to imperial Rome, the Beast of Revelation 13:2.

We will continue in the next installment with an analysis of the third section of the chapter, Revelation 12:14-17.

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* For a discourse on why the “great mountain” cannot fill “the whole earth” (Daniel 2:35) until Jesus smites the Little Horn of Daniel 7 (the Sea Beast of Revelation 13), see our series, The Fifth Empire.

29 thoughts on “Come Hell or High Water, part 2”

  1. I reread Do Not Weep for Nicomedia from
    June 22, 2014 and some of the comments. This one to Kevin was interesting.

    Timothy F. Kauffman
    June 23, 2014 at 7:47 am

    Hi, Kevin,

    My point in this entry is that there is a very explicit progression of Seals from the 1st Horseman (1st Seal, Revelation 6:1-2) all the way through the Seven angels being given Seven Trumpets (7th Seal, Revelation 8:1-2). Between the Sixth and Seventh, the angels are told “Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads” (Revelation 7:3), which is a reference to the trumpets that are about to blow. In other words, the people of God are to be sealed by way of preservation before the coming wrath (as was done in Ezekiel 9-10). As the Sixth Seal can be identified in the destruction of Nicomedia, and Seventh Seal can be identified in the fire that consumed it, we have the Scriptural support to determine precisely when the church was marked for preservation (Revelation 7).

    Remember our earlier conversation about how before 350 A.D., the church was accused of worshiping a “dead God,” but after 350 A.D., it was accused of worshiping “many wretched men” and “martyrs”? Here is the quote from The Church in The Catacombs, by Charles Maitland, p. 376:

    “Far be it from any one to repeat lightly or causelessly the calumnies cast upon Christ’s martyrs by the ungodly of past ages: but neither useless nor trifling is the collection of these slanders when employed to clear the ancient Church from the charge of idolatry. The Pagan accusations, when arranged in chronological order, divide themselves into two classes, according as they were advanced before or after the year 350. Christians were accused of worshipping, in the year

    150. Christ. (Celsus.)
    170. The great Man crucified in Palestine. (Lucian.)
    290. A Man born and crucified. (Apud Arno bium.)
    A dead God. (Oracle of Apollo.)
    300. Jesus. (Porphyry.)
    360. Many wretched men. (Julian.)
    370. Tombs. (Libanius.)
    380. Slaves, martyrs, and deacons. (Eunapius.)
    420. Martyrs. (Maximus Madaurensis.)”

    The question is, “What happened at the end of the 4th century?” What “happened” was the rise of Roman Catholicism, a system absolutely rife with idolatry. Maitland places the division at 350 A.D. I believe it can be established with even more precision: 358 A.D.

    It is not insignificant, then, that when the false church (Roman Catholicism) rose and would have led the whole world into idolatry, the Lord marked His people and preserved them from it. When the angels “sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads,” they list 12 Tribes, but not Dan—the tribe known for the particular sin of idolatry, and which sin Roman Catholicism was about to foist upon an unsuspecting world.

    I will also point out here that the descendants of Dan were particularly “skilful to work in gold, and in silver, in brass, in iron, in stone, and in timber, in purple, in blue [literally, violet or purple], and in fine linen, and in crimson; also to grave any manner of graving” (2 Chronicles 2:14), as is another antagonist with whom we are quite familiar:

    “And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble” (Revelation 18:11-12).

    Since Dan is described as a “serpent in the way,” and his tribe fell immediately into idolatry and his descendants were particularly skilled at making graven images and working in the same trade as “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth” (Revelation 17:5), the exclusion of Dan from preservation in the list of tribes in Revelation 7 on the August morning in 358 A.D. just screams “Roman Catholicism!” The Church of Jesus Christ must always be separate from her. Prior to 358 A.D., you see a remarkable Church, obedient to the commandments of God, and unwilling to bow before the idols of Caesar. After 358 A.D., you begin to see a new religion whose trade is in idols, and that religion is Roman Catholicism.

    I hope that helps.

    Thanks

    Tim

  2. Then followed by these fascinating events and date referenced above in today’s post.

    Timothy F. Kauffman
    June 23, 2014 at 10:44 am

    Thanks, Kevin,

    I will add here (and I might have to add this to the article itself, and I should not have omitted it) that when the Seventh Seal is broken, “there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour” (Revelation 8:1).

    The Scripture says that we ought to be silent when God stirs forth from His temple:

    “But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.” (Habukkuk 2:20)

    “Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.” (Zechariah 2:13)

    The reason this matters is that in Ezekiel 10, just before the angel is given coals to heap upon the city, “the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD’S glory.” (Ezekiel 10:4).

    Only after this did the angel take coals from the altar to throw upon the earth.

    Therefore, because the Seventh Seal has silence in heaven for half an hour and then the coals being heaped upon the earth in answer to the prayers of the saints, we can understand the Seventh Seal in light of Ezekiel 10. The reason there is silence in heaven for half an hour is that “the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD’S glory.” The succession of events is quite rapid here. At the Sixth Seal, the sun turns to sackcloth, there is a huge earthquake, and the people are buried under the mountains and rubble (Revelation 6:12-17). The 144,000 are marked (Revelation 7). At the Seventh Seal, there is silence in heaven for half an hour as the house is filled with the brightness of God’s glory, the angels are given seven trumpets, and coals are collected from the altar and hurled to earth, and Nicomedia is consumed in flames that burn day and night. Very rapid succession, and owing to the rapid succession of these events, and the light shed on the Sixth Seal by Isaiah 34, and the Seventh Seal by Ezekiel 9-10, we can pinpoint the marking of the 144,000 (which is the Church) to the very day—August 23, 358.

    It is quite liberating, actually, knowing with certainty that the Church of Jesus Christ does not have to own, rationalize or explain the nonsense that soon followed. It also helps us understand Augustine a little better. He didn’t know what hit him, but still managed to land on his feet. His explanation of the maternity of Mary and the paternity of God is priceless:

    “This child, born of the Father, created all ages; now, born of a mother, He has commended this day. That first nativity could not possibly have had a mother, nor did the second one call for any man as a father. In a word, Christ was born of both a father and a mother, and He was born without a father and without a mother; for as God He was born of the Father and as Man He was born of a mother; as God He was born without a mother and as Man He was born without a father.” (Augustine, Sermon 184.3)

    He obviously didn’t buy into Mary as “Mother of God.” In fact he denied it explicitly. Same with “adoring God’s footstool,” as I mentioned in In Vain Do They Worship Me. I don’t deny that Augustine struggled with various doctrines, was often too soft in his criticism, and given to swings between diverse opinions. But it is hard to make the case that he bought into Eucharistic adoration, transubstantiation and Mary as “Mother of God,” in light of his explicit denials of the same.

    Thanks again,

    Tim

  3. Then finally this is a good summary of his views for newbie’s.

    Timothy F. Kauffman
    July 8, 2014 at 6:33 am

    Thanks, Tim,

    I am writing from the Historicist position, but with a small modification. I agree with John Robbins’ article at The Trinity Foundation, The Antichrist, in which he shows that the Beast in Revelation 13 is the Papacy. However, I believe the Beast emerged much sooner than people realized—during the latter half of the 4th Century. To give you an idea of how this could be missed, you can see my article, A See of One. The Notitia Dignitatum was an early 5th Century document explaining the division of the empire into 13 Diocese at the end of the 4th Century, right at the time the Roman Catholicism was emerging, as I described in The Rise of Roman Catholicism. Of those 13, Roman Catholicism emerged in Alexandria, Antioch and Rome—the capital cities of thee of the Dioceses, claiming under the rubric of Petrine Primacy that those three constituted a See of One. As I wrote in that article, the church has always been anticipating a 10-way division of the empire, followed by the rise of Antichrist, who removes 3 of the 10. But I believe Daniel was speaking of 13 horns, three of which were removed by Antichrist so he could come up among the remaining 10, having subdued three of them. This is consistent not only with Daniel 7, but also with Revelation 12, 13 and 17, in which the final configuration of the divided Roman empire is a 10-way division. Not only was the church not expecting a 13-way division, but also the Notitia wasn’t even discovered and understood until late in the 16th Century, which means that a lot of Reformation history and commentary was “under the bridge” by the time the 13-way division was even understood. There is even evidence that by the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., the 13-way division of the empire ~380 A.D. was lost to history, not to be seen again until the late 1500s.

    Along those same lines, Diocletian’s Edict on Maximum Prices was not even discovered until after the first edition of Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire in 1776. If we are to stick only with what the Reformers wrote on eschatology, we would have to do so without knowledge of the Diocesan division of the Roman empire over the course of the 4th century, and without knowledge of Diocletian’s Edict on Maximum Prices. The same can be said of the Smyrnæan Inscription, which has tremendous bearing on our understanding of Daniel 11, yet was not discovered until the late 1800s. More on that in a later post.

    In any case, my position should be called Post-Nicene Historicist—to distinguish it from Preterism which has Revelation being fulfilled before 70 A.D., and from Classical Historicist which has the rise of Antichrist after 476 A.D.. I believe we should have been looking between 70 and 476 A.D., but that is easy to say from my position. A lot of data was not even available until the last couple centuries. Even the Donation of Constantine was still considered authentic at beginning of the Reformation.

    I hope that helps. Thanks for writing,

    Tim

  4. For those looking for the difference between a reformed historicist and a post Nicene historicist see below Q&A by Tim and I.

    Walt
    June 22, 2014 at 7:50 pm

    Tim,

    Do you agree with this quote from Pastor Price?

    “I would add that when the Holy Spirit in the Book of Revelation identifies “the earth” as being the object of the various judgments (seals, trumpets, and vials), most Historicists understand “the earth” in view to be the Roman earth (i.e. the Roman Empire), for these judgments fall upon the two great enemies of Christ and His faithful witnesses: the professing Christian (though antichristian) Roman Empire and the Papal Church of Rome. Thus, the rise of the second Beast with the two horns like a lamb (i.e. the Papal Church of Rome) to power was made possible by way of the stability, promotion, and protection of the Roman Empire and its Emperors.”

    Reply
    Timothy F. Kauffman
    June 23, 2014 at 9:53 am

    Walt,

    I agree that “‘the earth’ in view to be the Roman earth (i.e. the Roman Empire), for these judgments fall upon the two great enemies of Christ and His faithful witnesses: the professing Christian (though antichristian) Roman Empire and the Papal Church of Rome.” I agree with this largely because the Beast of Revelation 13 is explained to us in terms consistent with Daniel 7, and therefore “the world” and “the earth” are to be construed in a similar fashion, as in Daniel’s explanation to Nebuchadnezzar, “wheresoever the children of men dwell, … [God] hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth” (Daniel 2:38-39), etc… Here, “over all the earth” is a reference to the boundaries of the Greek empire—not the globe and all its territories. We must see Revelation in that light. And the same for all the beasts. “All the earth” means the extent of each respective empire’s domain.

    As for the remainder, “…Thus the rise of the second beast … was made possible by way of the stability, promotion, and protection of the Roman Empire and its Emperors,” I don’t subscribe to this. As you know, I identify the 2nd Beast as the Apparitions of Mary. Also, because I do not identify the mortal head wound as Pastor Price does, I do not see a great deal of time passing between apostolic era and the rise of Antichrist, and in fact I identify Antichrist with the Beast of Revelation 13.

    Does that answer your question?

    Thanks,

    Tim

    1. Thanks, Walt,

      Perhaps a simpler explanation is just that I do not believe the Little Horn of Daniel 8 and the Little Horn of Daniel 7 refer to the same thing, or that Daniel 9 is a Messianic prophecy, or that Revelation was written in c. 95 A.D.. The implications may not be immediately obvious to some, but the departure from the traditional interpretation probably will be.

      Thanks,

      Tim

  5. Tim,

    George Faber (1811) says on page 159-160 the following in his book “A Disortation on the Prophecies that have been fulfilled, are now fulfilling, or will hereafter will be fulfilled relative to the great period of 1260 years; the Papal and Mohammed apostacies…”

    “Thus, in the present instance, Antiochus Ephiphanes has some features which very much resemble those of the little horn; but the period of his persecution cannot be accommodated either to the 2300 days mentioned in the vision of the ram and the he-goat or to the three prophetic periods of 1260, 1290, and 1335 days specified towards the conclusion of Daniel’s last vision, even if those days, contrary to the whole method of prophesy, be computed as natural ones: therefore the little horn cannot be antiochus Ephiphanes. So again: the Romans have many features in common with the little horn, inasmuch that the grand characteristic of both is designated by the very same phrase of setting up the abomination of desolation; yet the era of the sacking of Jerusalem can in no wise be reconciled with the periods of 1260, 1290 and 1335 years: therefore the little horn cannot be the Roman empire.”

    This seems to be a major issue between you and traditional historicists.

    1. Mark, the audio alleges to debunk persecution by the Roman catholic church. Do you believe Rome had anything to do with the persecution of these alleged heretics?

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christian_thought_on_persecution_and_tolerance#The_Augustinian_consensus

      “With the adoption of Christianity by Constantine I (after Battle of Milvian Bridge, 312), heresy had become a political issue in the late Roman empire. Adherents of unconventional Christian beliefs not covered by the Nicene Creed like Novatianism and Gnosticism were banned from holding meetings,[15] but the Roman emperor intervened especially in the conflict between orthodox and Arian Christianity, which resulted in the burning of Arian books.[15]

      In contrast to the late antiquity, the execution of heretics was much more easily approved in the late Middle Ages, after the Christianization of Europe was largely completed. The first known case is the burning of fourteen people at Orléans in 1022.[21] In the following centuries groups like the Bogomils, Waldensians, Cathars and Lollards were persecuted throughout Europe. The Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) codified the theory and practise of persecution.[21] In its third canon, the council declared: “Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, .. to take an oath that they will strive .. to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church.”[22]

      Saint Thomas Aquinas summed up the standard medieval position, when he declared that obstinate heretics deserved “not only to be separated from the Church, but also to be eliminated from the world by death” [23]”

  6. Tim, if you get a chance, you may want to read Faber’s book. It will give you more dates that historicist set for start of 1260 year period.

  7. Historicist seven seals by Wikipedia:. Tom where do you disagee in th following Historicist view?

    First Seal: “In the historicist views of Nicholas de Lyra (14th century), Robert Fleming (17th century), Charles Daubuz (c. 1720), Thomas Scott (18th century), and Cuninghame, they agreed that the First Seal opened thereupon the death of Christ.[13]

    Puritan Joseph Mede (1627), associated the opening of the First Seal to year 73, during the reign of Vespasian, just after The Great Jewish Revolt.

    Campegius Vitringa (c. 1700), Alexander Keith (1832), and Edward Bishop Elliott (1837), considered this period to have started with the death of Domitian and Nerva’s rise to power in the year 96. This began Rome’s Golden age where the spread of the Gospel and Christianity flourished.[18] To 17th-century Dutch Protestant theologian, Vitringa, it lasted up until Decius (249).[19] However, a more common historicist view is that the Golden age ended with Commodus making peace with the Germans in year 180.[17]”

    Second Seal: “The common historicist view of the Second Seal is associated with the Roman period fraught with civil war between 32 would-be emperors that came and went during that time. It was the beginning of the end for the Roman Empire.[17] The Puritan Joseph Mede (1627), captured this timeframe from years 98 to 275.[19] Christopher Wordsworth, in his Lectures on the Apocalypse (1849), declared a 240-year timespan, from years 64 to 304. During this period, Wordsworth indicated Ten persecutions: First, Nero; Second, Domitian; Third, Trajan; Fourth, Marcus Aurelius Antoninus; Fifth, Septimius Severus, Sixth, Maximinus; Seventh, Decius; Eighth, Valerian; Ninth, Aurelian; Tenth, Diocletian.[10] The common historicist view of the Second Seal ends with Diocletian in 305.[17]

    Other 19th-century views were that of Edward Bishop Elliott who suggested that the Second Seal opened during the military despotism under Commodus, in the year 185. While the Church of Scotland minister, Alexander Keith applied the Second Seal directly to the spread of Mohammedanism, starting in the year 622.[19]”

    Third Seal: “The common historicist view of the Third Seal is associated with the 3rd century. This was a period of financial oppression imposed on Roman citizenry, created by heavy taxation from the emperors. Taxes could be paid in grain, oil, and wine.[17] Joseph Mede (1627), indicated that the Third Seal had opened from the rule of Septimius Severus (193) to Alexander Severus (235).[19] The English clergyman, Edward Bishop Elliott (1837), also highlighted the significant period of taxation that was imposed under Caracalla’s edict in the year 212.[10]

    Alexander Keith (1832), took the opening of the Third Seal directly to the Byzantine Papacy in year 606,[10] following Pope Boniface III as an “Easterner on the papal throne” in 607.[20]”

    Fourth Seal: “This rider signifies twenty years of fighting, famine and disease that plagued the reigns of Emperors Decius, Gallus, Aemilianus, Valerian, and Galliennus (248-268).[17]”

    Fifth Seal: “This seal occurred during the rule of martyred Christians who were persecuted by Emperor Diocletian (284-303). This was the tenth period of the persecution of Christianity and the most severe, because of being on a “worldwide” scale. Then with Constantine’s rise to power, Christianity became legalized (313) and the church was thereby vindicated.[17]”

    Sixth Seal: “Political upheaval and collapse of the Roman Empire brought about invasions of northern hordes of Goths and Vandals between 375 and 418.[17]”

    Seventh Seal: “The “silence” spans a 70-year period from Emperor Constantine’s defeat of Licinius (A.D. 324) to Alaric’s invasion of the Roman Empire (395). The prayers are those of the Christians martyred by Rome. The seven trumpets represent the seven judgments that God had in store for the Roman Empire.[17]”

    1. Walt,

      Although this question was addressed to Tom, I’m assuming you meant to direct it to me, since there has not been a Tom engaged in this conversation.

      You can see where I differ in the interpretation of the Seals in my article Do Not Weep For Nicomedia, which explains each Seal in succession, and which you have read recently, so I’m not entirely clear on why you would ask where I “disagree in the following Historicist view”. I would have thought it would be obvious where I disagree based on the article.

      Nevertheless, I cannot agree with de Lyra, Fleming, Daubuz, Scott and Cuninghame on their timing of the First Seal because the “conquering king” of that seal cannot be Christ, for two significant reasons:

      First the rider has a bow, but when portrayed as conquering King, Christ is equipped with a sword (Revelation 19:15).

      Second, as I have noted elsewhere, Jesus was born, lived, died, was raised and ascended during the Iron period of the statue of Daniel 2, during which period He was entirely passive toward the Roman empire. When He adopts a more militant posture toward the Roman Empire (i.e., as a Stone), the Stone strikes the statue in the Feet, not in the Legs. As the Stone has as its first objective the breaking up of the Iron & Clay Feet, the opening of the seals by Christ must occur after, not during, the Iron Legs. To have the first seal opened “thereupon the death of Christ” has the Seals opened during the Iron Period, which is obviously too soon, based on Daniel’s depiction.

      Additionally, as I noted in that article, the specific persecution of the saints in the Fourth Seal is based on a decree that originated from Nicomedia, and on the Fifth Seal the martyrs ask why the Lord does not “judge and avenge our blood,” at which time they are told to be patient. Since the Sixth Seal (earthquake) and the Seventh Seal (fire) were both fulfilled in the entire destruction of Nicomedia in 358 A.D., I have the seventh Seal concluded by 358 A.D., and the trumpets starting shortly thereafter.

      I hope that helps.

      Thanks,

      Tim

  8. Tim, sorry about the name. I was at the home of a church family this past weekend and used my phone. It changes words on me sometimes or I fat finger my letters. I think I got o rather than I in the name.

    Yes that helps. These distinctions should be clear to me but are not always even after reading a couple times so it is helpful to ask for comparisons.

  9. I would encourage any thinking Papist to read the great commentary on worship:

    “Question 2.—Is the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, instituted by himself, and so limited to his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of man, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture?

    Answer.—Yes. Deut. 12:32; Matt. 15:9; Acts 17:25; Matt. 4:9, 10; Deut. 4:15-20; Ex. 20:4-6; Col. 2:23. Thus the Papists err, who teach, that the images of Christ and the Trinity ought to be worshipped, and that not improperly, but even properly, and per se, with the same sort of worship, wherewith Christ and the blessed Trinity are adorned. Likewise, the Greeks err, maintaining that the painted images of God may be adored, but not the engraved or carved images of God. They are confuted for the following reasons:

    1.) Because it is expressly against the second commandment, Ex. 20:4, 5.

    2.) Because God is infinite, unmeasurable, incomprehensible, and spiritual; and therefore nothing can represent him, as the prophet well infers, Isa. 40:18, 25.

    3.) Because every representation of God, by graven images or pictures, is a most disgraceful changing of the glory of the incorruptible God, Rom. 1:23.

    4.) Because images and pictures of this kind are lies and vanities, which the Lord abhors and mocks at, with an holy scorn, Isa. 44:9-18.

    5.) Because the Lord expressly forbids the Israelites to represent him under any form or shape, for, the text says, ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake to you in Horeb, out of the midst of the fire, Deut. 4:15-20.

    6.) Because though the Israelites worshipped the true God by an image (for Aaron built an altar, and made proclamation, and said to morrow is a feast to the Lord) yet they are accused of the sin of idolatry, and for that cause severely punished, Ex. 32:21, 27, 35.

    7.) Because Jeroboam, and the ten tribes who worshipped the true God, by the golden calves, set up at Dan and Bethel, (for the worship of false gods by images, was afterwards brought in by Ahab, who is thereby said to have provoked the Lord more than all the kings of Israel before him, 1 Kings 16:31, 32.) are accused of the sin of idolatry, and severely threatened, 1 Kings 12:29, 30, and 1 Kings 13:2, which threatening was put in execution by Josiah, 2 Kings 23:15, 16, 20.

    8.) Because the apostle says, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device, Acts 17:29.”

  10. “Question 2.—Is religious worship to be given to angels, saints, or any other creature?

    Answer.—No. Rev. 19:10; Rom. 1:25. So then, the Papists do err, maintaining that not only God, but good angels, and saints departed, being canonized by the pope, ought to be worshipped and called upon, even after a religious manner—chiefly the virgin Mary; and that there is a divine power in the relics of the saints, which therefore ought to be worshipped, Col. 2:18. They are confuted for the following reasons:

    1.) Because the object of invocation and religious adoration is he only who is omnipotent, omniscient, and searcher of the heart. For there is none that knows our necessities and wants, but he that is omniscient, and none can succor and help us, but he that is omnipotent. But angels are not omniscient, Eph. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:12. Neither are the saints departed omniscient, as is clear from Isa. 63:16. Abraham is ignorant of us.

    2.) Because they that are dead, know nothing of our condition, Eccl. 9:5.

    3.) Because no man ought to call upon him, in whom he does not believe, Rom. 10:14. But no man ought to believe in saints, or angels, but in God alone, Isa. 26:4; Jer. 17:5.

    4.) Because neither saints alive, nor angels, would suffer adoration and worship to be given to themselves, Acts 10:25, 26; Rev. 22:8, 9.

    5.) Because the worshipping of angels does derogate from the honour of Christ, in whom we have boldness, and access, with confidence by the faith of him, Eph. 3:12.

    6.) Because the worshipping of saints and angels is like a polytheism—the having of many gods, cf. Rev. 19:10. For the Papists attribute to each one of their saints and angels, a proper power, as the heathen did of old to their idols and false gods, Acts 14:12.”

    Author name withheld.

  11. “Question 4.—Is any religious worship given to God, since the fall, accepted in the mediation of any other, but of Christ alone?

    Answer.—No. Rom. 5:1, 2; Heb. 9:15. Thus does the Popish church err, maintaining that saints departed—and chiefly the virgin Mary—are mediators and intercessors between God and man. They are confuted because:

    1.) The Scripture affirms expressly, that there is but one mediator between God and man, namely, the man Jesus Christ, 1 Tim. 2:5.

    2.) Because no man can come to the Father, but by Jesus Christ, John 14:6, and by him we have access to the Father, Eph. 2:18.

    3.) Because the Scripture promises that they shall be heard, that, in the name of Christ, seek such things as are according to the will of God, 1 John 5:14. But there is no promise in all the word, that they shall be heard that pray to saints or angels, John 14:13, 14.

    4.) Because the apostle says, whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, not in the name of saints, Col. 3:17.

    5.) Because Christ who is called the propitiation for our sins, is also called our advocate with the Father, 1 John 2:1, 2.

    6.) Because mediation is a part of the priestly office of Christ, which is only proper to himself, and which cannot be divided between him and the saints, Heb. 7:25.

    7.) Because the saints are not to be called upon as we proved in a previous question, John 16:23.”

  12. “Question 4.—If prayer be vocal, ought it to be in a known tongue?

    Answer.—Yes. 1 Cor. 14:14. Thus, Papists and heretics err, maintaining that it is not needful, that public prayers be in a known tongue; but that it is oftentimes expedient, that the prayers be performed in a tongue unknown to the common people. They are confuted for the following reasons:

    1.) Because the apostle teaches expressly the contrary, 1 Cor. 14:9, 12.

    2.) Because prayers celebrated in an unknown tongue, are not for edification, 1 Cor. 14:14.

    3.) Because he that occupieth the room of the unlearned (that is, who understands not strange tongues) cannot say, Amen, 1 Cor. 14:16.

    4.) Because the Lord’s prayer, which is the special rule of all our prayers, was prescribed in a tongue, at that time best known.”

  13. Question 3.—May we pray for the dead, or those of whom it may be known, that they have sinned the sin unto death?”

    Answer.—No. 1 John 5:16. Thus, the Papists err, maintaining, that prayers, alms and masses, ought to be appointed, and made for souls departed, as these which will really profit them. They are confuted for the following reasons:

    1.) Because the dead are either happy; and so, they need not our prayers, Rev. 14:13. Or they are damned, and so our prayers cannot profit them: For out of hell there is no redemption, Luke 16:25, 26.

    2.) Because we read that David mourned, and fasted for the child, so long as it was alive: But when once the child was removed by death, Wherefore, says he, should I fast? Can I bring him back again? 2 Sam. 12:21-23.

    3.) Because all our requests and prayers are either founded upon a precept, or promise of God to hear our prayers, John 9:31. But there is neither a promise that God will hear us, in order to the dead, nor a command to pray for them.

    4.) Because we are altogether ignorant of the state and condition of the dead, and therefore we cannot pray for them in faith, Rom. 14:23.”

  14. Hey Walt,

    Common practice for the Jews at the time of Christ was to pray for the dead. This is in the book of Maccabees which was part of the Old Testament the apostles read and therefore we can assume read by Jesus too.

    I don’t see any horrified condemnation from Jesus or apostles on this issue. Why, because it was honorable and efficacious.

    The Jew still pray for the dead. Jesus was a good Jew even told the people to listen to the Pharisees. Mat 23:1-2. Moses’ seat. “So practice and observe whatever they tell you,”

    1. Rocky said:

      “Common practice for the Jews at the time of Christ was to pray for the dead. This is in the book of Maccabees which was part of the Old Testament the apostles read and therefore we can assume read by Jesus too.”

      Actually, you are mistaken. The book of Maccabees was added to the Holy Scripture as an uninspired book of history. It was never to be considered Holy Writ, or inspired in the Canon of Scripture as taught by Antichrist.

      1. WALT SAID: Actually, you are mistaken. The book of Maccabees was added to the Holy Scripture as an uninspired book of history. It was never to be considered Holy Writ, or inspired in the Canon of Scripture

        ROCKY: 2Maccabees 12:45
        “Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.”

        Luther threw 1+2 Maccabees (and other books) out of the Old Testament that were part of the Greek language compendium (Septuagint) that was known to have been used by the Apostles and apparently Jesus.

        Seven Jewish brothers, their mother and their teacher are known in Christianity as the Holy Maccabean Martyrs. They are so named from the description of their martyrdom in 2 and 4 Maccabees

        To this day the Jews still offer prayers for the dead.

        Praying for the dead implies they have a positive effect (of some kind) on the dead. Catholic belief in purgatory comes in part from the Jewish practice which was NEVER condemned by Jesus or Apostles.

        Perhaps you would like a bit of a Jewish perspective.

        http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/omitting-the-maccabees/

        The author says,

        “Although the Books of Maccabees were not included within the Hebrew Bible, they are still of value. Yet even this is difficult within a traditional Jewish context, due to another historical layer. First and Second Maccabees were included in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible originally prepared for the Jewish community of Alexandria. However, the Septuagint became the official version of the Bible for the nascent Christian Church. When this happened, its authoritative nature was rejected by the Jewish community. Ironically, the Books of Maccabees survived because they became part of the Christian canon, for otherwise they most certainly would have been lost during the centuries. But once this Christian canonization occurred, these books became lost to the Jewish world for many centuries.”

        ROCKY: The story of Hanukkah is preserved in the books of the First and Second Maccabees, which describe in detail the re-dedication of the Temple in Jerusalem and the lighting of the menorah. This winter-time feast is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, but only in the 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees.

        And it was at Jerusalem the Feast of The Dedication (Hanukkah), and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch” John 10:22-23

        Protestant patristics scholar J. N. D. Kelly remarks that in spite of Jerome’s doubt, “For the great majority, however, the deutero-canonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense. Augustine, for example, whose influence in the West was decisive, made no distinction between them and the rest of the Old Testament.

        It should also be noted that the first-century Christians – including the apostles and therefore likely Jesus – effectively considered the seven deuteroncanonical books canonical.

        They quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that contained these seven books. The deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.

        For the Reformers to say that they would follow what the Jews later (after the apostolic era) defined as their Old Testament canon is to reject New Covenant authority.

        The fact is that after the birth of the Church on the day of Pentecost, the rabbis no longer had authority from God to settle such issues. That authority, including the authority to define the canon of Scripture, had been given to Christ’s Church. Thus, Church and synagogue went their separate ways, not in the Middle Ages or the 16th century, but in the 1st century.

  15. “Question 2.—Is religious worship to be given to angels, saints, or any other creature?

    ROCKY: Well you got part of it right Walt. Your problem is that you don’t know the difference between worship and honor. And I fear the honor you give John MacArthur has damned you for all eternity. What a shame. Poor Walt. :O

    1. Rocky said:

      “ROCKY: Well you got part of it right Walt. Your problem is that you don’t know the difference between worship and honor. And I fear the honor you give John MacArthur has damned you for all eternity. What a shame. Poor Walt. :O”

      Actually, I am a vocal opponent of MacArthur on this blog. I don’t believe he is teaching reformed, biblical instruction on multiple doctrines, form of worship, form of government and discipline. I recommend you be factual before you charge, indict and put to death those former Catholics who see your ignorance as silly and dangerous. You might be a billion Catholics strong, but there is significant evil in a mob mentality.

      1. Rocky said ” Your problem is that you don’t know the difference between worship and honor” Actually Rocky, Reformed believers do know the difference between worship and honor. But the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t know the difference between worship and worship. Rocky, praying to Mary and elevating her above God, even making her the mediatrix of ALL graces is idolatry worship. Lifting up bread and following it around in the street and praying to it is the definition of idolatry. Just because your church calls it something else doesn’t change the fact that it’s idolatry. We don’t lift up John MacArthur or R.C. Sproul etc. in the street and pray to them. God is Spirit the scripture says, and only will be worshiped in Spirit and truth. His word is truth. There is no room for anyone or anything else in worship. The Spirit only intercedes for believers with God, not with anyone else. No one else intercedes for us with God. No one except God.

  16. WALT quotes a man of little understanding: “Thus the Papists err, who teach, that the images of Christ and the Trinity ought to be worshipped, and that not improperly, but even properly, and per se, with the same sort of worship, wherewith Christ and the blessed Trinity are adorned. Likewise, the Greeks err, maintaining that the painted images”

    ROCKY: Now that would be very sad. . . if any of it had the slightest bit of truth. This quote is just part of a malicious anti-Catholic rant that you have wedded yourself too.

    But at least I am getting more of a sense of who you are Walt and what this website is probably all about too I guess.

  17. Rocky said:

    “ROCKY: Now that would be very sad. . . if any of it had the slightest bit of truth. This quote is just part of a malicious anti-Catholic rant that you have wedded yourself too.

    But at least I am getting more of a sense of who you are Walt and what this website is probably all about too I guess.”

    Rocky, I was raised Catholic, and taught how to worship images of Christ ever day in morning mass. I used to walk up to them and kneel before them in mass praying to them. I have seen on this site others posting videos where entire legends of Catholics follow images walking down the street praying and publicly kissing them hoping they will save them. You may need to come out of your blindness about this fact if you truly believe Roman Catholics do not worship, idolize, kneel, genuflect, honor, glorify, dedicate and weep in front of these plastic, wooden and cast iron images.

  18. Walt, wow, thanks for those videos. Sometimes we forget the depth of idolatry and utter lostness of billions of Roman Catholics. Scary. Their carnal doctrines are so repulsive to those who believe in the gospel.

  19. WALT SAID: Please don’t let Rocky influence you that this is all not really worship. Believe what you see, not what you hear from Rocky. He is placed here to defend Satanic doctrines and worship.

    ROCKY: You are man of ill will Walt and being given accolades by Mister 65% is not any validity that I would be proud. It only shows a lack of wholesomeness and Christian charity in the company you keep .

    So lets just see if you have any substance outside of shameless anti-Catholic insults and trashy YouTube videos. We will see if you have any insight into answering my questions here and on some of the other pages . Or has your intellect been totally dimmed from the violence done to it through lack of goodwill. It will be interesting.

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